|
 |
From: Lance (Social Comentary and Email Conversation)
Remote Name: 66.82.48.1
Date: 20 Dec 2003
Time: 02:44:23
More Layoffs at Boeing announced today: http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2003/12/15/daily43.html?f=et80 . Having been in conversations with highly upset strikers from Boeing it appears that not all of these fine folks understand the pressures of Corporations, market sector rotations or World Economics and Politics. But this might be interesting to read, an email conversation from a Boeing laid off worker: --------------- This conversation is a continuation of this email conversation: http://www.parthe.net/_cwg1003/0000006b.htm Here are his comments back to defend the Union and condemn Boeing and it’s leadership. I wonder if the Boeing employees were the one who really sabotaged the 757 Tanker deal and if they are the ones who screamed to the media foul play and insider information on the Contract with the government? Here is what he had to say:------------------- . I can talk to you about Boeing--I have 25 plus years with them. We have not ask for a DIME in 10 years of contracts talks. We have ask for JOB security and medical. We built this company not Phil Condit and Stonsifer. Phil stole 77 Million this company in 6 years as CEO. He took us from # 1 in world -(75% of the airplanes were provided by us to less then 50%. Stinsifer worked at GE as CEO and nearly ran them out of business . Then he went to McDonald Douglas and ran them out of business while pocketing over 100 MILLION. America is full of CORPORATE PIRATES. And NO its not good for China to build wings. First of all they use no personal protective equipment from all the chemicals and other materials that kill you or retard the children. They have ZERO-"0" laws to protect the environment from these damaging chemicals and materials. Many people in companies have been marched out and shot for making a mistake. If you see the work these people do you would not fly on a Boeing airplane Theses American corporations owe their country and citizens jobs!!!!! Why--because the American people built a system that is safe and productive for them to live and have a business. Our tax dollars funded many programs at Boeing and in fact these dollars have bought us to the commercial JET!!! Yea the thing you FLY ON!!!. Airbus has no problem competing and their wages are 30% higher then ours with more vacation and benefits. And Lastly their is mo ORGANIZES CRIME in Unions any more they moved to Corporate America. Do think that people like Condit and Stonsifer would still be alive after the devastation caused to the American citizens by them if there was the MOB in these Unions. You fail to make the argument that by buying goods made in China we are indirectly financing there war machine. There are two main conditions that are really the point of contention: 1. Buying goods from communist China 2. Wal-Mart's immoral and unethical ways of doing business and treating employees. I find it funny how the unions are seen as terrorizing when such union/company partnerships such as Harley Davidson and other have shown that American companies can complete and still pay their workers well and provide benefits. On one hand you speak the truth regarding what NAFTA and the WTO but fail to place blame on the government for allowing it. You again places blame on regulations, attorneys, unions and the such. You mention the Wal-Mart is 10% of the GDP but again fails to realize that our country is the number one importer of foreign goods do to our economy be consumer based. Where this you are really missing the boat is when all the good paying jobs are gone who is going to buy their shitty Chinese made goods? When we fall --------------------------------- Our comments back to this individual are as follows: Yes the team is the largest single factor in building a company. But the IAM had made a terrible choice at the wrong time, for 26,000 (17000 actually striking) people with such high paying jobs to pull that as the Commercial Aviation sector for large Aircraft was in a sector rotation and downward spiral. Airbus, which is subsidized by the EU countries has made deals that Boeing could not make in trade for trade deals in other countries. The Boeing Aircraft are superior, but deals are often done behind closed doors and financing terms even better. At the Paris Airshow in the past few years Boeing was in a dead heat with Airbus and this year in Paris with the war issues and France and Germany (16% unemployment, 69% taxes) upset things were even worse off. After 9-11 they were parking aircraft in the desert. Boeing did little even with helicopters and Airbus was all over trying to put together something and sold some, meanwhile after downsizing and strikes, question marks were set up in the minds of Asian buyers. Including those largest airfreight companies. Recently Snow visited China and Bush and discussed the trade deficit and China agreed to buy some Boeing aircraft to appease the political fall out with China from trade deficits of 150 Billion in 2002. GM got an order of 5000 vehicles, which were very small in total considering. You complain about Wal-Mart yet the Chinese agreed to buy Boeings to keep our populations from revolting. We need China to buy our consumables and things, not our country. Although they have been buying our debt and if our dollar shrinks and we pay that off when it is low we win it all back cheap. I remember a 69 day strike in 1995 at Boeing and a re-negotiation in 1999 and threats across the board including in IAM lodge in Wichita, KS. You are not the only city hurt, I met many an IAM pissed as hell at the world. http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0703/00000044.htm In 1995 there were serious issues in the financing and leasing businesses at Boeing and there were problems if Boeing gave up big money during those times. Remember all the loses from the last down turn in the airlines when the high fuel prices came. It appears that the IAm wanted to show some force as a pay back for what they felt was a lack of respect this time around, wanting to get pay back, which is hardly a win-win situation. When Boeing lost the JFS flyoff against Lockheed it was a huge blow. This latest deal with the lease deal on the 757's was huge. Even though some of the money in there would have allowed R and D for the Subsonic Cruiser to become an inflight refueler for the Scram Jets, Hypersonic, Atmosphere skippers, X-plane concepts and X-24A, X-38, etc. http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0803/0000004d.htm Because the envelope at those speeds there is a compatibility problem with the window very narrow, which could cause a departure in a heavy 757 during refueling. The lease deal for an aircraft would be the best but not with all the buried costs. Can we blame Condit for this? Airbus has a better deal but not better planes. The EU can offer other countries better deals on trade stuff. Boeing should have hung tough and the unions should have gone along with this, now we have 30,000 highly qualified and skilled top of the food chain people out of work? That is no good, I lived in Southern CAL during the end of the wind down after the cold war when we let go some 88,000 Aerospace Workers and yes McDonald Douglas was a disaster due to the 747 and MD did not have another power play after the DC-10 which my dad use to fly for Continental Airlines. Yes it was a dog, but Stonifer and his groups were involved in getting the government to give incentives for those who bought them with large doors incase of wartime. Fed Ex bought many of them from airlines and event he US Government bought all those KC-10 flying gas stations. Think how long they have been flying, those are huge airframe times. Like the DC-3, DC-8, DC-9 MD sold thousands and thousands, but Boeing was making it happen with new computer designing and faster to market. Boeing also had many sales from B-47s and other models propelling the design capabilities R and D. Yes the government funded those scientists to make jet aircraft here and Bell, Lockheed, MD, Northrop and everyone else benefited from it. But wartime and government R and D has also given us Microwave ovens and many other things such as nuclear power and most modern material sciences. Boeing has received many great things in the manufacturing processes from their dealings in the US with other companies too: http://www.parthe.net/_cwg900/000001e0.htm and http://www.parthe.net/_cwg1202/00000029.htm I am not going to argue with the pay numbers for top executives in this country only that the boards decide, the stockholders own the company and it is there choice not anyone else. If you own stock you have proxy to vote those number of shares and the Unions Block of shares could be voted as a block, those issues are based on the shareholders best interests. If the Board are all friends and vote themselves high salaries and the CEO etc, then this is an issue for stockholders. The Boeing employees make over 35 million per week in wages so we must put things into perspective also. If a great leader can propel the company they are in valuable if they cannot, they should put their money where their mouth is and take $1.00 that year, in my professional opinion. But I do not play the Boeing stock nor do I believe it is a great long term deal compared with other investments. Airline stocks and orders for new aircraft move too much for this, much based on fuel and with oil at $30.00 per barrel we are on edge. Fuel is a big deal in the boom and bust aviation business. Maybe the 7E7 will be that efficient? http://www.parthe.net/_cwg1003/00000037.htm Regarding Chinese quality, I totally agree with that as much as both of us like this attachment. Some of the issues will continue and get worse. If thee playing field were level I would feel more comfortable. Shooting dumb workers is an interesting way to get rid of poor performers. The government has helped fund processes, engine R and D research which assists many industries. They get the benefits first and we get it second. Boeing has also helped with their intranet vendor instant service which has assisted government procurement, logistics and also many other great US companies, like Ford, GM, GE, etc. We can out think the competition if we all work together and throw away these hardliner attitudes, we can out think these issues. http://www.parthe.net/_cwg1003/00000012.htm Airbus does have a problem competing until very recently now that they have the economies of scale. I believe the future of air cargo to be significant and both companies will do well. But Airbus was a farce until just recently and yes they complain about Boeing being subsidized. But Boeing is many different companies. Military, R and D, subs, Airliners, Satellites, etc. So many companies and at the top of the food chain in nearly all of them. With many more years to follow. You cannot blame sector rotations in Airlines, government spending on military or cuts in space programs on those CEOs. Surely within the 17,000 some strikers of which I knew a few, didn't someone explain all this to them, many had been there forever. Maybe not since the 1974 strike but long enough to understand the full extent of these issues. I did not make the point as to us financing China's space program, satellite program or weapons programs. This was not within our topic of conversation yet. China also flies the largest telecommunications satellite, which runs the N. Koreans systems. So for now there are things we need to do in the correct order the game is multifaceted. If companies here were not seen as extortion points for ticketing and fines from government agencies and if there were not so many huge and ridiculous lawsuits out there more companies could compete here on price and quality. The playing field needs leveling there China as well along with some regulation cuts here to get back to level. Then people can work and have more money and afford to choose to buy American. Today the products say china, but people buy them, they are voting. They are voting against you and your union at the same time as well as against America, that is their choice. Wal-Mart is doing what everyone does. What Sears did to their vendors, what Price Club does, etc. They do not pay their bills on time to companies, ask for cuts in product quality, etc. But Boeing does the same thing with vendors. GE is worse. Dell is a master at it. Wal-Mart has taken all those strategies and uses them all at the same time. Is this unethical? Companies with strong brand names can demand price, if not they have failed to maintain that brand name and must compete on the other end for lowest price. People want lowest price. And too that regard Jet Airliners are way too expensive. You mention Harley Davidson a great company with strong brand name and therefore little if any competition in it's market. But if their labor union went on strike and their sales slow further then there will be issues there too as we are seeing with the third quarter slow down in the motorcycle and personal water craft markets due to off season and harsh weather which effect those sectors. These are yearly cycles. The issues with the strike at Boeing by the machinists is interesting in that they wanted to show force and were somewhat vengeful in their attitude and the persnickety arrogant executives made a tactical error in they did not walk the walk with regards to modern team work with the workforce that builds companies. Human Capital is real and it really matters. But am not defending either side. Both have made mistakes and a great American company is in a world of hurt. Couldn't this issue have waited a few years? There are clear skies with less turbulence down the road. http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0703/00000063.htm NAFTA was ill-conceived but correct in principal. I do not blame the government for anything, we are the government, we must place the blame with ourselves along with the responsibility to fix the problem. Blame games do not solve anything. This is what the unions were set on doing, that is not what I call a partnership which was celebrated in business schools across the country until the mid 90's at Boeing. Who do you blame? The company CEOs or the employees and their unions? The government for picking sides? Or hell lets just blame some out of date retired Red China-men? Blame the WTO, blame the Burger-miesters, Airbus, the EU, Taliban? I am for free trade, with level playing fields. Everyone should do what they are best at and those things they are not good at, they should allow others to do. Civilization works best under such ideals. The WTO can prevent WW III if we are smart enough to understand the underlining principals of free trade, thus far we have not and to that point up until now everyone has been looking to us to lead by example. We have failed and now there is a mix-matched group of world-wide know it alls fractionalized and dividing the world from coming to the point of a free trade world with level playing fields. We will fall if we allow ourselves to be divided, every where I look the blame game. China has nothing to do with that. We allow imported goods without the restrictions of human rights, OSHA, EPA, standards. And we attack our own companies with outrageous lawsuits, fines, over regulation and then unions take what is left so no money is left to move forward. And yes the Executive Management has high-jacked some companies for short term gain in order to appease shareholders who do not give a damn about the company and are simply day trading along with the mutual funds in the gambling casino which was suppose to finance America's Industrial Strength and Innovation. Additional thoughts on similar issues of the industry. http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0703/00000060.htm and http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0802/00000006.htm and http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0703/00000086.htm . ------------------------------------------------ Here is our response from our Union friend: This company makes millions or Billions every year until we got poor management running our company. Period ------It has nothing to do with the IAM or SPEEA. WE are asking for a fair share of the pie. I noticed you missed the point about slave labor and the slow killing of the Chinese workers. Also the destruction of the environment. airbus is no longer subsidized and have not been for several years. I also noticed you do not understand when Walmart chases every business in a town out of business there is no other place to work. What you need to say is so simple----- Your against workers having a fair share of the pie. You against them having a good living for their families and your against America. You would like to be like Sadam or the Chinese government and and rule with and iron fist. Thank GOD our country was founded on men like me. Smart, hard working who believe in GOD. Men that are fair and not GREEDY. I noticed you had no comment on the 77million and the 100 million pirated from the Boeing company by the CEO's. Do you notice how you forget the important things in life and try defend your evil ways of greed? Take a hard look at yourself and say--What would GOD think of me? What do my workers think of me ? You still have time to adjust your opinions on the workers in America and the pirating by America's companies and corporations. --------------------------------------------------------------- We see our union friend here is blaming Wal-Mart for what is happening at Boeing? Here is my response to this inconsistent argument: ---------------------------- If in fact this is true about Boeing, are you saying that the high valuation of the dollar against the Euro was helping Airbus for four years was no factor? That the attitude of the workers had changed and was no factor? That the threat of over excessive finish products liability lawsuits was no factor? The increased workmen's compensation was no factor? That the recession was no factor? That high fuel prices in the airline sector were no factor? That raw materials were no factor as they increased in price and had to be brought from foreign shores? http://www.parthe.net/_cwg1003/00000021.htm And the engineering team failed to win the JSF contract which Boeing was hoping for? That things were not really sooo great only the PR was good for the Super 747, Pelican, Sonic Cruiser? And what about the satellite program like irrdium contract not providing any worthy play and the competition between foreign satellite companies, Lockheed's air space-FAA deal, Hughes and others? Or the Autonomous underwater subs getting trickle funding when they should be getting more? Or the delay of the scram jet engines? Or the slow research on anti-gravity, X-plane projects, etc? Or the Apache under performance, which are only now being solved, still losing people? Poor research on the HUD systems not bring us to the next step? Or the problems with helicopter-plane transports? One only has to read a few articles in Aviation Leak and Spy Technologies to under stand the deeper issues. And after all this we are to blame who? Management? Is it all their fault? If management is so bad then get rid of them, game over fix the problem. If that is what the owners wanted or thought was best they would have done that sooner. The Board would have agreed it is best to cut losses, which apparently they did after these latest games with barrowed patents, research and games with the 757 lease deal? If all the business sectors were running properly a 10 year old in the care of Michael Jackson could run that company from Never Never Land and Jack-off all day and night and report to the board the strength of their willy as a special report in material sciences and Boeing would still be running fine. Management is only part of the problem it is not the only problem, the way Boeing is set up amongst their different business groups it is a rather simplistic business model and really a few guys like Jack Welsh, Fred Smith, Michael Dell, on the board could keep the management under control, but then again you would be bothered by what those over achievers might charge to fly their jets to the meetings? Go read Ayn Rand. I did not miss the point of slave labor, I do not miss points, I miss nothing. The fact that you bring it up is rather interesting. You sit on cat walks and special work stations with computerized everything and rivet guns, real time data, air-cushioned 100,000 Lb pallets, work in white uniforms, go home every night live above the means of the average American who really is economically enslaved, blame every one else for everything. And then you demand more? Otherwise you are going to tip the checker board over and have a temper tantrum? Fine be off with you then, the board game is over? You want more benefits? Please, I am self employed, I have none, I work harder every day of my life than you ever have, but no? You want to hold up the entire company along with 17,000 people to insure that everything stops? To teach them a lesson? What lesson did anyone learn? My Mom has Boeing stock in her 401K and it would have been nice for your strikers to have not done that so the stock would still be up now. China is using slave labor? When was the last time you went to China? China has come a long way and needs to come further. Airbus is no longer subsidized because it beat Boeing in their over priced market. Why were you over priced? Unions. lawyers, regulations, etc. Airbus is subsidized by all the order it gets from airlines owned by states. Just like Boeing is subsidized by US government contracts for military aircraft and R and D. Boeing sells aircraft all over the world therefore it must be a global player. Airbus has a problem in that the tools and dies and all the infrastructure was paid for while subsidized and that when they need to re-tool they will not have the benefits of the substantial ROI since they have to pay for re-capitalization. Probably known by Boeing and why things like the 7E7 will change life on earth. But composite aircraft when they catch fire burn with cyanide gas, so it will be interesting what happens the first time one of these light and fast birds skids off the end of a run way and everyone dies? And the cloud kills nearby every body including all the fire fighters. The future for Boeing is possible and can easily fix these issues if someone would see Boeing for what it is and spin off certain business groups. I am not against workers having a fair piece of the pie, I am against rabble rouser unions destroying the pie to take the whole thing, or whatever is left. If all the money is siphoned off in health care benefits and increased pay then you have to raise price and compete and then you lose and no one has anything. That is what I am against. You said Boeing and Labor were a partnership before? What happened? You only blame one side, but it takes two to fight. You say I do not notice when Wal-Mart chases everyone out of town, there is no where to work? How can anyone not notice that? Obviously having been to every city in America I have noticed that. But cities many times want box stores due to sales tax revenue percentages so government can provide better services to those who demand them, so the politicians can stay in power and government can grow, which like unions they think this is their goal? Serves no one. Down town areas need to build river walks and revitalize down towns for a place to go ten this will not be an issue. The consumer has more choice with 42,000 items 30% are made in the USA. A lot more than Bob's Shoe store. If Bob has been a community player for years he will remain in business, if he has developed a steady clientele and not over charged due to a captured audience and market. http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0703/00000062.htm and http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0503/00000061.htm and http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0803/00000009.htm and http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0703/0000005f.htm and http://www.parthe.net/_cwg0803/00000007.htm and Smart planning and suburban style areas work and it is what people want and enjoy. It provides jobs and can co-exist with Wal-Marts and other Box stores. Well considering that Edward Winslow my ancestor wrote the Mayflower compact this country was founded by people like me. The Mayflower compact has many of the same items in it that Jefferson liked and implemented. Unions should not revolt against companies and cause them to fail. If so everyone loses. That is not solving anything. Only those in the unions who hold America for ransom win and everyone else loses. Unions breed laziness, loss of productivity and a gang like mentality. Your just angry because your behavior in your gang of 17,000 people got the best of you and now you are suffering the same fate of all Americans whose lives have been destroyed by other unions which drove companies off shore and their owners to drink. Put in an honest day for an honest pay, look out the window at the rest of the world before belligerence sets in and stop blaming everyone else for your behavior. Otherwise the unions outcry will sink this country. The issues is on both sides. If you will be smart enough to see that it takes both to run the world. Innovators, dreamers, hard workers, passion, excellence, etc. It is a team, when one side of the team continually undercuts the efforts of the other all is lost. If unions will not come to terms with that, then companies will be forced to take more jobs to other countries. I am not against the workers and industrial might of this country. I am very much against Hypocrisy on either side. You do not have to kill a company to save America, who does this serve? Your beer buddies? It serves no free man. In this present period, we will sink or swim based on our resolve to persevere and work together, if not, it is unworthy of conversation and all points are only sound and fury to be taken up yet again in another period an repeat the history of the folly of mankind. Of which, we may as well not waste our breath. --------------------------------- Our union friend now writes back, very upset ------------------------- Your wrong again about most of what your stating here. The company says the salary and benefit package to build an airplane is is 5 to 7 percent . The unions say its 3 to 5 percent. We are the most skilled and productive in the world. Lets meet in the middle and say that labor cost are 5 percent to build an airplane. Where is all the money going.. Poor management decisions. Micky D's in California?? A billion dollar Boondoggle.. The CEO's purchase 10 million in stock back for the company in hopes of driving the stock, but no one out here was fooled--It did not go up. Are management has continued to make the million dollar blunders. You refuse to acknowledge hundreds of millions of dollars our CEO and other top 5000 in the company pirate from our company. Most of what you say is very twisted much like Bush stated about Sadam so we could get oil fields secured for and by the 1000 oil men working in the White house under Bush. I have friends that have gone to China several times on Company business.. Its a dirty polluted place where the productivity is terrible, but of course you will deny this too, because your driven by the thought of hatred for Unions and the workers in America. You think your above everyone else. You refuse to acknowledge that the workers would be slaves if you had it your way. That is except for your family of course. The people working out in these little satilite shops for Boeing think that they are really important--well they are . People like your Mom should get a fair chunck of pie, not our corporate pirates. ---------------------------------------- and of course we need to enlighten our union man. Who is very upset and needs to vent but also this gives us an insight into the problem in America. We cannot blame the corporation leadership entirely. Here is our reply to him in the next email. --------------------------- Well in Manufacturing most companies would be delighted at anything under 15% for labor costs in total. I am surprised it is that low. This is very good news and shows the potential of the company. Where is all the money going? Every where. There are so many costs, legal fees, government regulation compliance, legal fund for lawsuits if a plane is lost. R and D and engineering on test projects, Black projects (which result in new contracts), satellite endeavors, future aircraft, helicopters, ships, etc. In aviation you adapt or die. You must give to the future. And to that you can thank the advancements of the 7E7 which is another major revolution as the world moves more to point to point with air-taxi services and the incredible gains made by discount airlines like Southwest where the hub and spoke long hauls with connecting co-branded airlines had not worked as well. Even FedEx is going back to smaller hubs and smaller point to point plays. Not everything makes the mid night sort each day. At Boeing there is also Repayments for capitalization, Energy costs (imagine the electricity used). Sales departments-Nothing happens until someone sells something. FAA testing a certifications of each individual aircraft under the FARs. Political contributions to keep your company in business. Again lawyers, law makers, rules and regulations. Money to negotiate with union has to cost both sides dearly in lossed resources and lawyer fees. Leasing and financing losses to match the Airbus deals. Look what happened to GE Capital with the SUV markets, Insurance companies bailing out of REITs, GMAC with crisis in Atlanta foreclosure rates. FMC nearly getting axed for non essential core businesses under Ford Jr. Making money on the money and having airliners parked in the desert is no good for anyone. And advertising costs, lobbyists, etc. It takes a lot to sell an aircraft. I was involved in a Lockheed Constellation sale to John Travolta once and starting the first aircraft multi-listing service also. Supplies, aluminum, avionics, engines for those not leased thru GE, etc. Think about the costs for interiors alone. Every sub industry in aviation is hurt by over regulation, workmen's comp and rules and lawyers. Also transporting wings and fuselages around. Think of all the costs, cost over runs, taxes, fees, fines, unbelievable bull crap? With all these supposedly fixed costs becoming increasing percentages of variable costs and delays to airlines which were promised causing contract re-negotiation. Inflationary costs on raw materials, components, materials, etc. This is not a one dimensional game you are playing. And at Boeing everything has to be perfect because when you are flying an airliner at 40,000 feet, which is nothing more than an aluminum toothpaste tube with jet engines on it, you cannot afford mistakes. I think that the pay of the CEOs is high and I said that in those years they fail to make money they ought to take one dollar, I would. That is a reasonable acknowledgement isn't it? Boeing despite having the worst aviation downturn in 40 years in an already cyclical industry, which turns every decade for the south shores of Madagascar. Bush has nothing to do with Boeing, he said "Let's get it done” to the tanker deal, which most likely would have bailed out the leasing and financial side of the business which took hit before and badly after 9-11 and sold all those 757s to the USAF as flying gas stations and mind you the 757 is already paid for and the economies of scale would have meant big profits. They almost closed that one to the chagrin of McCain. Bush is on your side, he likes aviation sector, believes in America and our future. What does this mean for Boeing? AWACS planes, satellites and a host of other things, the military is going mobile and well they should to combat a mobile enemy this means upgraded arsenals of C-17s and many other transports including more 737 which I just read since they have served themselves and proven themselves in commercial aviation. But it is time for upgrades too, to modernize and you would be thankful of Bush in the white house how dare you bad mouth him at this juncture. You and your union are lucky to even have jobs, get real with this anti-Bush thought. One minute you cry about your job and pay and the next you bad mouth an administration, which is holding up America's number two and number six industry? Of which Boeing is a player in both. How can you do this? Your comments stink of hypocrisy. It is government’s job to protect the people, not let the unions extort money to pay for a free-be like Health Care. Those companies should of their own free will compete for labor on those terms. And you guys are paid more than nearly every single other industry in this country right now. Oh please send money we want more? Well I want more too, the difference is I have earned every penny. I did not deny the deplorable situation, I was referring to slave labor. Do I think I am above everyone else? Well I guess sometimes an entrepreneur has to have a strong ego. However how I view myself certainly has nothing to do with Boeing and the Labor unions to which we are referring. What I am opposed to is you insisting that you should be allowed to hypocritically attack the company that has support you and your family above the average American level. Then attempt to purport falsehoods as if real to those who do not know all the issues. You do not have to work for Boeing, no one is forcing you to work there. You could work anywhere, I assume you are a white male with an education, you have no excuses. None. None what so ever. The free market dictates labor costs and pay. If you were paid normally people could fly for less and have more money to spend in WA state and therefore more jobs would be created and you would not need to be paid more. This is absolutely ridiculous for me to argue when you deny the free market as the great equalizer. It built the middle class you so desperately want to maintain. Shareholders own the company. if you buy stock with your earnings and vote with your shares then you can make change because it is your car. If you pay a driver to drive your limo, they cannot throw you out in the middle of downtown I-5 bridge, because the do not like the fact that you make more money than them. If you think you are underpaid, well then go work somewhere else, because there are over 15,000 aerospace qualified unemployed now in Wichita, who will work for $4,000 per year less. Supply and demand. ----------------------------------- Unfortunately our union man decided to give this to a higher up friend in the Union. Guess what he had to say. I am very concerned and believe that the leadership of Boeing needs armed security guards and it is quite possible that someone will go postal in Seattle over these issues. The amount of anger is pretty significant. ------------------------------ His friend writes between the lines of my email so we will put these in Quotation Marks to show his friends responses ------------------ I sent this to a friend and here is is comments below in red. ------------------- Well in Manufacturing most companies would be delighted at anything under 15% for labor costs in total. I am surprised it is that low. This is very good news and shows the potential of the company. Where is all the money going? Every where. There are so many costs, legal fees, government regulation compliance, legal fund for lawsuits if a plane is lost. R and D --------- “Insignificant as Boeing slashed R&D to 1/4 by the orders of Mike Sears.” ------ and engineering on test projects, Black projects (which result in new contracts), satellite endeavors, future aircraft, helicopters, ships, etc. In aviation you adapt or die. You must give to the future ------- “How would he know” -------- . And to that you can thank the advancements of the 7E7 which is another major revolution as the world moves more to point to point with air-taxi services and the incredible gains made by discount airlines like Southwest where the hub and spoke long hauls with connecting co-branded airlines had not worked as well . Even FedEx is going back to smaller hubs and smaller point to point plays. Not everything makes the mid night sort each day. At Boeing there is also Repayments for capitalization, Energy costs (imagine the electricity used). Sales departments-Nothing happens until someone sells something. FAA testing a certifications of each individual aircraft under the FARs. Political contributions to keep your company in business. Again lawyers, law makers, rules and regulations. Money to negotiate with union has to cost both sides dearly in lossed resources and lawyer fees -------- “Boeing and the union only use lawyers to review the rough draft of labor agreements” ------- Leasing and financing losses to match the Airbus deals ------- “Mike Sears is the one who blundered and created those losses” ---------- Look what happened to GE Capital with the SUV markets, Insurance companies bailing out of REITs, GMAC with crisis in Atlanta foreclosure rates ------ “Thank the offloading of good paying jobs in both white and blue collars.” --------- FMC nearly getting axed for non essential core businesses under Ford Jr. Making money on the money and having airliners parked in the desert is no good for anyone ------ “911 not labor unions is responsible for this.” ------ And advertising costs, lobbyists, etc. It takes a lot to sell an aircraft. I was involved in a Lockheed Constellation sale to John Travolta once and starting the first aircraft multi-listing service also. Supplies, aluminum ---------- “Alcoa smelters are shut down because they feel it is better to sell power than to produce aluminum. Also, the executive at Alcoa tried to layoff their workers but thank god government step in and forced them to pay their employees instead.” ------- avionics, engines for those not leased thru GE, etc. Think about the costs for interiors alone ------ “Interiors are the cheapest portion of the airplane.” -------- Every sub industry in aviation is hurt by over regulation, workmen's comp ------ “This moron has no idea about what our and other's bodies go through producing airplanes. Does he think that there should be no accountability to injured workers?” ------- and rules and lawyers ------- “Insignificant .” ------ Also transporting wings and fuselages around ------ “Again, how would he know. We don't transport wings idiot! We produce our own wings. 7E7 wings will be produced in Japan and those cost are recovered by offsets .” ------- Think of all the costs, cost over runs, taxes, fees, fines, unbelievable bull crap ------- --- “You mean what is between your ears? “ --------- With all these supposedly fixed costs becoming increasing percentages of variable costs and delays to airlines which were promised causing contract re-negotiation --------- “This idiot also needs to realize that Boeing wanted the 1995 strike and admitted to our union because they were behind in making deliveries and a strike absolves Boeing from having to pay those penalties associated with late deliveries. Three of our union brothers lost their lives from that strike.” ------ Inflationary costs on raw materials, components, materials, etc. This is not a one dimensional game you are playing ------ “Your thinking certainly is.” ----- And at Boeing everything has to be perfect because when you are flying an airliner at 40,000 feet which is nothing more than an aluminum toothpaste tube with jet engines on it, you cannot afford mistakes --------- “You're stating the obvious like it is some epiphany.” ------- I think that the pay of the CEOs is high and I said that in those years they fail to make money they ought to take one dollar, I would. That is a reasonable acknowledgement isn't it? Boeing despite having the worst aviation downturn in 40 years in an already cyclical industry which turns every decade for the south shores of Madagascar. Bush has nothing to do with Boeing ---- “No, not at all! He like that idiot Clinton are making it easier to offload America to the turd world.” --------- he said "Let's get it done to the tanker deal" which most likely would have bailed out the leasing and financial side of the business which took hit before and badly after 9-11 and sold all those 757s to the USAF as flying gas stations and mind you the 757 is already paid for and the economies of scale would have meant big profits. They almost closed that one to the chagrin of McCain. Bush is on your side ------- “yeah my back side” -------- he likes aviation sector, believes in America and our future --------- “He believes the in the future of the NOW” ------ What does this mean for Boeing? AWACS planes, satellites and a host of other things, the military is going mobile and well they should to combat a mobile enemy this means upgraded arsenals of C-17s and many other transports including more 737 which I just read since they have served themselves and proven themselves in commercial aviation. But it is time for upgrades too, to modernize and you would be thankful of Bush in the whitehouse how dare you bad mouth him at this juncture -------- “How dare you insinuate that he is helping America” ----------- You and your union are lucky to even have jobs, get real with this anti-Bush thoughts ------ “Lucky as opposed to what? Get real and wake up to what is happening to our great nation. When any country loses its industrial might it ceases to be great moron! Look at the United Kingdom .” ------ One minute you cry about your job and pay and the next you bad mouth an administration which is holding up America's number two and number six industry ---------- “Idiot! Were you not reading Tom's emails? There were not complaints of pay just benefits and jog security” --------- Of which Boeing is a player in both. How can you do this? Your comments stink of hypocrisy ----- “No, your's do since you fail to examine the offloading of jobs.” ----- It is governments job to protect the people ------- “protect major corporations you mean” not let the unions extort money to pay for a free be like Health Care --------- “Why not! The corporate executives have full medical. Microsoft has full medical for everyone. Boeing can afford to five full medical for everyone.” -------- Those companies should of their own free will compete for labor on those terms ------- “Again, this idiot fails to address the issue of good paying jobs going away to low paying jobs where this consumer based economy will not survive because no one will be able to afford anything including whatever business this shit bag is in. How come this idiot is not recognizing that white collar jobs are being offloaded too.” ------------ And you guys are paid more than nearly every single other industry in this country right now ------- “Wrong again. Construction trades make a lot more than we do idiot” -------- Oh please send money we want more? Well I want more too, the difference is I have earned every penny ---------- “So do we asshole!” I did not deny the deplorable situation, I was referring to slave labor. Do I think I am above everyone else? Well I guess sometimes an entrepreneur has to have a strong ego --------- “Don't your mean an inflated ego?” ---------- However how I view myself certainly has nothing to do with Boeing and the Labor unions to which we are referring. What I am opposed to is you insisting that you should be allowed to hypocritically attack the company that has support you and your family above the average American level ------- “Should we all be good little Nazis and just should up? That is how the Jews went to the gas chambers idiot!” ------ . Then attempt to purport falsehoods as if real to those who do not know all the issues ------- “That is exactly what you are doing!” ------- . You do not have to work for Boeing, no one is forcing you to work there --------------- “This has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Does this mean I should not be critical of my government and I should move out of the United States because no one is forcing me to live here?” ----------- You could work anywhere, I assume you are a white male with an education, you have no excuses -------- “Again no excuses for what? This is your way of avoiding the issues” ------- . None. None what so ever. The free market dictates labor costs and pay ------ “There is no free market asshole! Just corporate fascism!” ------- If you were paid normally people could fly for less and have more money to spend in WA state and therefore more jobs would be created and you would not need to be paid more ---------- “Wrong again idiot! If you're not making good wages you can't spend money! Are you so naive that if we all were making $8.00 per hour the sales price of the airplane would drop? Management already said it would not! Rather, the profits would go back into their pockets!” ---------- This is absolutely ridiculous for me to argue when you deny the free market as the great equalizer. It built the middle class you so desperately want to maintain ----------- “This very same so-called "free market" is what is shrinking the middle class shit for brains!” ---------- Shareholders own the company. if you buy stock with your earnings and vote with your shares then you can make change because it is your car. If you pay a driver to drive your limo, they cannot throw you out in the middle of downtown I-5 bridge, because the do not like the fact that you make more money than them. If you think you are underpaid, well then go work somewhere else, because there are over 15,000 aerospace qualified unemployed now in Wichita, who will work for $4,000 per year less. Supply and demand. ---------------------------------- So this is what the Unions really think about discussing issues and negotiating things, this is the true spirit of those who are out paying illegal aliens to stand out their and picket on their behalf. This is the reality of those fine folks we say are not having jobs this holiday season. They would take from American productivity any day of the week for a little more. So here is my response to these ugly comments and name calling. ------------ Thomas, You see what I mean. Look at these responses and think to your self? We are now turning the discussion into a full-blown name calling exercise and exactly whom does this really serve? They say a man is an average of his five closest friends. If this is 20% of your new thought process and self, then perhaps you are moving in the wrong direction. Your friend as you call him is no friend with this type of attitude, if you follow such tact how can this help anyone. Divided we will fall. I keep being accused that "I fail to make a point" I do not fail, at making points, but occasionally people fail to hear them, do they not? I fear he maybe one of those hot-tempered individuals who wishes harm on others. Is he going to go Postal? Is someone else in your organization going to go postal? What is going on here? Is this venting or is this serious? If it is serious then you have a worse problem and we will see on TV one of your own taking arms against a company which once fed their families. Is this going to be a group attack? We have already seen the most recent union strikes not work and these desperate people appear to have convinced themselves that nothing is off limits, that they can rape and pillage what ever they wish and attack any agency, person, company, distribution system of infrastructure to prove a point. What is next? Boeing felt they had to cut R and D. Due to the fact they felt they had to keep the profits up to keep everything going in the worst aviation slump in 40 years. You cannot compare the benefits at Microsoft to the benefits of Boeing. Microsoft competes for labor in a tougher industry for brainy people. Even if now there are more unemployed computer Gurus than before you cannot take something away once you give it out, that cause disgruntled workers and kills productivity. I believe the cuts in R and D were really stupid and would personally never have done that. But that's me and I am not privy to all the same information. But R and D was a big cost previously in Boeings History all the way until recently. R and D although not apropos to the commercial airlines business in the military sector of Boeing has proven useful with materials, avionics, UAV flight controls, propulsion, etc. Boeing has spent lots on R and D, think about it. They have cut it now, in the downturn, but it was always a significant factor. Also the costs to engineer the aircraft and although they do it faster it still costs lots. The costs to test and evaluate costs lots and is spread over the production cycle. It does not matter if Boeing and the unions only use the lawyers to do the drafts, they are still lawyers and still costly and still causing friction and therefore it is still a cost one of about 20 I listed. I did not say that unions were responsible for the parked aircraft in the desert, we were discussing costs of making aircraft, lack of sales generated and leasing costs, airline failures and financial division of Boeing. This is just a quick name calling comment, as are most of these comments by your FRIEND? What are your enemies like? I am aware of the Alcoa issues, Bonneville Power, selling off of energy to CAL and shutting down plants on the Columbia. This is why I mentioned it. As far as wings being transported I just read in AWST that there will be wings made in both China and Japan as part of these next 7E7 deals. Fuselages goes without saying you can see those traveling on the rail cars now. Regarding Interiors being the cheapest part of the aircraft? Not really but let's say they are the absolute cheapest part, they are still worthy of mention and listed within the 20 items of where the money is going. But as I am reading these slanderous accusations to my character, love of country, intelligence and as a CEO myself, if I ran Boeing. I would go robotic and fire all of you for your disrespect, insubordination, attitude and Internet terrorism against the Boeing Company. You wonder what management is thinking. Well that is it. You certainly pissed me off. I can only imagine what the leadership is thinking now. You guys are in deep do-do with this line of reasoning and name-calling. I would not trust any of you back into the hangers in Everett. For some one to blunt state I have no idea what your bodies go through when you build aircraft is bogus in deed. I washed cars for 15 years, ran a four-minute mile and self induced and subjected my body to more than building an aircraft. And mind you the level of food intake and types of foods are far worse to the brain and heart and body than the building of aircraft in a perfectly ventilated environment with all the gear you guys get. Ever installed carpet? Laid Brick, tar'ed roofs, built decks, plastered stucco, etc.? Please spare me the crybaby attitude. This is just bogus lines of dribble. Name calling and waste of time. Me a moron and idiot? What is that all about sir? The issues of accountability of injured workers is interesting since 2/3 of the injuries are fake and people trying to make money from lawsuits without working. You know I am right and this drives up costs for all employers everwhere. Misrepresenting an injury is fraud, you claim the leadership at Boeing is fraudulent, look at the people in the Union for god’s sake and why not while you are at it check out the preacher in your church or bishop? You know what? Properly oiled robots do not have injuries, See YA. Rules and regulations in America insignificant, you cannot make that comment with a straight face unless you are legitimately intellectually challenged. How can one condemn one sentence of my three pages as stating the obvious, therefore it is unworthy of conversation? My entire comments are obvious and I am simply pointing out these concepts. Is the union only willing to argue points which are not obvious or go against your skewed view of the whole issue? Bush and his administration is better for Boeing than that of other candidates vying for podium space and air time in a last grasp for air before fading into the political graveyard of days gone by. Do you actually believe you would be better served with them? I guarantee you that the union will support any one for political office as long as they promise to get them what they want. No matter how many Americans suffer. The Union waves the flag and talks about America and her people, yet turns their back on what's best for the country in trade for what is best for their acquisition of additional water toys, new cars, state-of-the-art BBQ and plasma large screen surround a sound entertainment center? Tell me where I am wrong, you know the union guys you work for, tell me I am wrong. Isn't this what we are talking about? If you own any foreign made products at all in your home then you have to be part of the problem as well. How can anyone in the union bad mouth Bush, Boeing and an entrepreneur and then complain about American jobs and load a Large Screen Sanyo Plasma TV in their Toyota Pick-up? The union argument is hypocritical. Boeing sells aircraft all over the world. How many KLM 747, Nippon or DHL Cargo planes have you seen on approach to SeaTac? How many Qunatus, JAL, Taiwan Airline Boeing 747 SPs? If the unions wish to sell planes abroad so Boeing can pay them more why are you complaining about Wal-Mart buying 70% of their inventory outside of the country? Go thru your house and look at all the Chinese wares and think about it. Your friend has reduced himself to calling me a shit bag now? I ask you is this what you believe to be a competent individual and understanding of the issues here? He is your friend and I judge people by the company they keep. I want you to personally know this. I have degraded by value of you as a person by 20% through observation, not stereotyping, real observation in this reply to my comments. I have degraded your personal integrity, intelligence, aptitude and family name. What choice does one have? I have not asked the union to go along without open mind. I have asked the union to knock of the hypocrisy, unfounded claims, and embellished rhetoric, to look out the window at the rest of America and then shut up and do their job. I am well aware of the 1995 strike at Boeing being good for the company and saving them some 400 million dollars in direct costs. Face it labors is a direct cost of manufacturing, you want to raise costs in the middle of an economic down turn, so you went on strike and there are more following today. http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2003/12/15/daily43.html?f=et80 ----------------- Well I hope you have enjoyed the debate between Boeing Unions and an outsider looking in. We have a severe crisis in this country, we are dividing ourselves and this is hurting the problem terribly. The issues are serious and are exaserbated during the Presidential Election year as unions and democrate pendants attack the leadership of our nation as they attempt to get votes for themselves. Yet as one union man here states, Clinton and Bush are both New World Order Folks. So it appears we cannot solve this problem with a different president since the real problem is human nature and rests within the minds of the union worker based on a gang mentality attitude and an unwillingness to hear other views. People seem to like to blame others and everything else for their mistakes. In this case it appears to be my fault that Boeing has laid off folks? But I only wash cars? Interesting. I try to buy American, support American Enterprise and I feel for their plight. Having driven by land to every city in the US over 10,000 population I feel I can make such judgements, however such an opinion of an observer of civilizations, economics, psychology, philosophy, business, free trade, culture and even aviation seem to be unworthy of comment. Not because I wash cars, but because I offer a different view from the liberal union anti-bush mantra? Well then so be it. I stand corrected on two points of contention in the Boeing affair with regards to costs of production in their superior business model, I am impressed, yet under all the other issues of debate it appears we have made our points well and there is which is left to be desired of the sincerity of the union labor in this country to get on the same page with management and work for a better tomorrow which seems to be on it’s way and we should see incredible numbers by Spring in our US Economy. If any one has any further comments on the Boeing Strike besides what appears in the Seattle Paper, Business Journals, Wall Street Journal, NY Times, Aviation Week or AvNews Online then we would most certainly like to here it. As we watch disgruntled union personal use this election year to slander leadership of companies, politicians and attempt to embellish the truth by crying fraud, unfairness or crooks, we shall see if the past repeats itself and the unions and disgruntled former employees are able to use the email, chat room, bulletin board Internet terrorists attacks to see their will. Their will being to destroy the company if they cannot get everything they ask for. And if that does not work are we going to see more shootings at Boeing? What we are witnessing is a labor union in the year 2004 using the system to extort money from companies. Asking politicians to run block and assist them. We as taxpayers are hurt by this because Boeing sells the US Military Aircraft. So if the unions destroy Boeing’s Airline Commercial Aviation Division we all lose. There are some awfully smart people playing all these machinists off against the management right as the country comes out of recession. Trying to get their Christmas order in for the new years boom in the aviation sector as the economy turns back to full strength. The unions and the companies and the politics are playing a huge chess game with high stakes right now at a time when they should throw this sound and fury away and get back to business. Those are some thoughts, email with comments; Lance@carwashguys.com
|
|
©Copyright 1996-. All rights reserved.
Site hosted by CCG
Site design by CCG Studio
DISCLAIMER:
Although we exert control over all articles written by our staff and
consultants, we are in no way able to assure the accuracy of any content generated by our
readers. Any information or advice provided by our readers should be used
cautiously, and should be considered as an opinion of such, and not the views, ideas,
opinions, or advice of Washguy.com. Washguy.com., its staff, and consultants
shall in no way be held liable or responsible for any false or misleading information or
injurious advice obtained from our readers, including any information posted to this
Bulletin Board forum. Any information or advice obtained from other readers
through Bulletin Board postings shall be used at the reader's own risk. The
Bulletin Board forum functions as a discussion group for the exchange of views,
information and opinions on issues related to the Car Wash Guys, Franchising and their
associated topics. Washguy.com, its staff, and consultants will not be held
liable for any incidental or consequential loss or damage sustained as a result of this
information or advice. No user shall be entitled to claim detrimental
reliance on any views received from the staff, consultants or other readers.
By using this Bulletin Board and it's related forums, you agree to indemnify and hold
Washguy.com, its staff and consultants harmless from any claims arising as a result of
your use of the information or materials you download from or upload to the Bulletin
Board.
